Roman Catholic 4 Dummies: December 2012

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^{The delusion beliefs and commentary of Patrick J Miron}

I’m a Catholic…Forgiveness of Sin in the Bible belong to the APOSTLES, and the Roman Catholic Church,

Assembled by Pat Miron , (with Ed additional commentary)

not to the Disciples of Jesus,

FROM: agapebiblestudy.org

Protestant Theology & Catholic Doctrines

Exposed to cover & discover the “Naked Truth“... Catholic responses to the Booklet: “Answers to my Catholic Friends” by Thomas F. Heinze … Part 10b

A Catholic reply to Protestant “[mis]- Understandings” Part 10b

Patrick j miron and this form of scriptural mental masturbation

I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord "breathes" on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord "breathes" divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained." In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Ed note

^{there is always another version of the scripture}

Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to "men."

Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles(disciples) had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles' successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the "Son of man" has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus' authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. ( it really is disciples)

This is a significant area of delusion of scripture interpretation, by Patrick J Miron

PjM Opinion: significant area of delusion

The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church. ( huh ?) patrick j miron dosen't seem to realize that it was the followers who were Jews as such.

That the Roman Catholic Church was mainly composed of Gentiles.. about-325 with Constantine

Constantine was born in Naissus, Upper Moesia, on 27 February in roughly AD 285. Another account places the year at about AD 272 or 273.
He was the son of Helena, an inn keeper's daughter, and Constantius Chlorus. It is unclear if the two were married and so Constantine may well have been an illegitimate child.

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ's ministers (Disciples) can forgive the eternal penalty of sin,( the reason you go to purgatory) they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an "indulgence").

Purgatory: An Essential Roman Catholic Doctrine
James McCarthy

Though there is no biblical basis for purgatory, there is a strong philosophical need for it in Roman Catholic theology. The Church views salvation as the objective adornment or beautification of the soul. It is a process which starts at baptism through which sanctifying grace is initially infused. This makes the soul holy and inherently pleasing to God. Other sacraments and good works further justify the soul and make it increasingly attractive to God. The goal is to transform the essential character of the soul into something which is in itself objectively good. It is, therefore, only reasonable to require the complete cleansing of every vestige of sin before the soul can come into the presence of God. Purgatory, therefore, is the logical extension of the Church’s process of salvation.

2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as "in persona Christi"). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

this is not true the RCC sacrament of confession has a different focal point and only got changed at Vatacan ll

This is a significant area of delusion of scripture interpretation, by Patrick J Miron

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man's authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15,

the priests of the Church. this is a RCC and Patrick j Miron Delusion

1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

^{Ed. note Patrick j miron likes the version that says Apostles, and is the basis of his argument}

¹⁸Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

Jesus Appears to His Disciples, is one of the common forms of the Greek and Hebrew

¹⁹On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” ²⁰After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
²¹Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” ²²And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. ²³If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Patrick j miron :

The first thing to note here is that Jesus breathes on his disciples. This is the second time in all history that God breathes on man (the first time was when he gave man the breath of life, in Genesis 2:7).

Surely, something significant is happening. Christ then goes on to say that if they (the Apostles) forgive the sins of people, then they are forgiven. If they do not forgive them, they are not forgiven. Here Protestants object by saying that the original Greek should be translated as "If you forgive men's sins, they have been forgiven them...."

Well, I (patrick j Miron) am not a Greek scholar and it is unfitting for me to say whether it should be translated this way rather than the way it has been,

but I do know that the original Greek word is in a perfect tense [of the verb aphiemi], suggesting near past. So patrick's Ego and self righteous education must make him "Right".

But either way, it does not change the fact that Jesus is here giving his Apostles the power to forgive and retain sins. If they forgive them, then God has forgiven them. If they retain them, then God has retained them. You see that by the mere changing of tenses, the context and meaning is not altered in the least.

^{patrick j miron continues with}

Many, if not all, Protestants have tried to find their way around

John 20:21-23. They try to make it Jesus' words mean something like, "If God forgives their sins, then you proclaim them forgiven" or, "If you deliver the Gospel to people, then they shall be freed from their sins." However, this is not what Jesus said. He said plainly and simply: "If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven. If not, then they are not." These are the Lord's Words, not mine. Jesus had ample opportunity to state what he said in all kinds of different ways. He did not, however.

How do we know that Jesus gave this power to his Apostles ONLY and not to everybody? To answer this question,

Patrick j Miron says that

we must first note that John's Gospel nowhere uses the term "Apostles" as a reference to the Twelve.

so we must believe Patrick j miron's interpretation and commentary

So the omission of that term here is insignificant. At least the power was only explicitly given to the disciples that were in the upper room, that is for sure (see verse 19). We can further reason that from the context the term "them" in verse 22 is used in the same sense as it is in verse 24 where it refers to the Twelve.

Ed note

^{another version of the scripture}

⁸Miryam from Magdala came announc- ing to the taught ones that she had seen the Master, and that He had told her this. ¹⁹When therefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the taught ones met, for fear of the Yehudim, Yahushua

came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace to you.” ²⁰And having said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The taught ones therefore rejoiced when they saw the Master. ²¹Then Yahushua

said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” ²²And having said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Set- apart Spirit. ²³“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” ²⁴But T’oma, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Yahushua

came, ²⁵so the other taught ones said to him, “We have seen the Master.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the mark of the nails, and put my finger into the imprint of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I shall by no means believe.”

Patrick j Miron then says :

Of course, the typical Protestant response to all of this is,

"But only GOD can forgive sins!" And that is true. Of course.

But the Sacrament of Penance does not deny this. We're not saying the priest forgives the sins instead of God. Rather, and AGAIN, God works through the priest. Neither do we believe that we should go to confession INSTEAD of "praying straight to God," but rather, one should do BOTH, not either/or.

For additional info contact

Passage: PArt 10b Protestant Theology and catholic Doctrine this is the final segment in this series

Sent by patrickmiron66 - May 20, 2012 (Original Message)

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catholicquestions/attachments/folder/400306559/item/list

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Jesus Appears to His Disciples, is one of the common forms of the Greek and Hebrew

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